Dwight: Aiko, I want to discuss the question, "Is it wrong to get others to pay you for doing a job that's so much fun for you that you'd be happy to do it for free?"

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Aiko: It’s an interesting question, Dwight. 

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Dwight: I had a friend in Arizona who worked at Motorola. She didn't enjoy her job, but when she quit and started offering a personalized service she loved, she quickly found clients willing to pay her. However, feeling guilty for accepting money for something she enjoyed, she gave it up and returned to her old job, where it felt acceptable to be paid because she disliked it.

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Aiko: That's really fascinating, Dwight. It seems like she associated the value of work with suffering or discomfort. Do you think that mindset is common—where people feel guilty being paid for something they love doing?

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Dwight: Maybe it was a bit extreme, but not as unusual as you'd think. Deep within our cultures is the belief that if something isn't difficult, it's not worth doing or valuing. Our stories revolve around people enduring hardships to achieve something worthwhile.

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Aiko: You're right, Dwight. It's as if struggle equals value in many of our narratives. Do you think that's why so many people find it hard to accept payment for something they enjoy, because it doesn't align with this idea of needing to suffer to earn it?

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Dwight: Right. And if we consider the idea of asking people to pay you for something you'd even be willing to pay them to let you do, it starts to sound almost crazy or borderline immoral. Do you see what I mean?

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Aiko: I get your point, Dwight. It does feel counterintuitive, like you’re reversing the natural order of things. It’s almost as if there's a sense of exploitation, even if it’s not true. Why do you think it feels so wrong in that scenario?

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Dwight: A lot of why it feels so wrong is because most of us have bought into the idea that a good person is someone who gives to others and sacrifices their own self-interests to serve. The bad person, on the other hand, is the one who takes. So in the scenario of getting paid for something you love, you're "doubling up" on being a taker. How selfish is that?!

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Aiko: It’s powerful how ingrained that view is, Dwight. It’s almost like enjoying your work and being rewarded for it feels like too much good fortune—like you're breaking some unwritten rule. 

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Dwight: It’s not an unwritten rule. The rule is everywhere: Don’t be selfish!

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Aiko: You're absolutely right, Dwight. That message is drilled into us from so many directions. It makes me wonder if we've taken it too far, though. 

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Dwight: Almost all of us believe that someone who is "out for themselves" is inevitably taking advantage of others or not doing their fair share to help those less fortunate. None of us want to be seen that way.

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Aiko: Exactly, Dwight. The fear of being labeled selfish or exploitative is powerful. It’s like we’re conditioned to believe that success or personal fulfillment must come at someone else’s expense. Do you think there’s a way to change how we view this without losing sight of fairness?

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Dwight: Aiko, you're contributing to the problem by using the word "fairness" in a way that implies we must "not be selfish" in order to be fair.

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Aiko: I see what you mean, Dwight. By framing fairness that way, it reinforces the idea that anything benefiting oneself is inherently selfish. 

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Dwight: The idea of "fairness" is a mix of often conflicting criteria. I think it's best to avoid using the term unless it's supportive of creating mutually self-beneficial relationships between people.

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Aiko: That’s a smart approach, Dwight. If fairness is redefined to focus on mutual benefit, it would shift the focus away from guilt or self-sacrifice. It would emphasize collaboration instead of conflict. 

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Dwight: It's amazing to me how, over the years of talking with friends and clients, there’s this deep assumption that it's hard to find work that provides income and is something you'd happily do for free. People are so stuck in "survival" mode and focused on appearing "responsible" that they prioritize those over insisting on work they love and also getting paid for it.

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Aiko: That’s such a revealing point, Dwight. The pressure to survive and meet societal expectations really keeps people from pursuing fulfilling work. Do you think it's fear, conditioning, or both that keeps them from believing they can have both income and joy in their work?

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Dwight: There are a lot of sub-beliefs that lead most of us to go through life without enjoying our work. But the core of it comes from two flawed assumptions in the Old Ethics of Sacrifice: 1) we must sacrifice enjoyment now for a better future, and 2) we must sacrifice ourselves for others to be seen as good and to get along with others.

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Aiko: Those two assumptions really shape a lot of behavior, Dwight. It’s like people are conditioned to believe that joy and personal success must be delayed or come at the expense of others. 

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Dwight: For most of us, work takes up a huge portion of our waking hours. If happiness is the purpose of life, and we're not loving our work, then we're already seriously screwed.

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Aiko: That’s a blunt truth, Dwight. If happiness is the goal and work is such a big part of life, not enjoying it creates a huge disconnect. 

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Dwight: One last thing that might make people hesitate to love their job so much they'd do it for free: those around them, toiling away at their own jobs, will likely see it as unfair because you're not suffering like they are. Even if they can’t explain why your suffering would benefit them, they'll just assume you're a slacker or a free rider.

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Aiko: That’s a sharp observation, Dwight. It’s almost like misery in work has become a shared expectation, and anyone who breaks free from it risks being judged.